Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee - Wednesday 2 February 2022 Session 6 - Pàrlamaid na h-Alba
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Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee Wednesday 2 February 2022 Session 6
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CONTENTS
Col.
DECISION ON TAKING BUSINESS IN PRIVATE ....................................................................................................... 1
CONTINUED PETITIONS ....................................................................................................................................... 2
Air Traffic Management Strategy Project (PE1804) ..................................................................................... 2
Protect Scotland’s Remaining Ancient, Native and Semi-native Woodlands and Woodland Floors
(PE1812).................................................................................................................................................... 8
Prescription and Limitation (PE1860) ......................................................................................................... 12
Island Community Representation on Boards (PE1862) ........................................................................... 13
Onshore Wind Farms (Planning Decisions) (PE1864) ............................................................................... 15
Surgical Mesh and Fixation Devices (PE1865) .......................................................................................... 17
British Sign Language (National Qualification) (PE1867) .......................................................................... 23
Wind Farms (Community Shared Ownership) (PE1885) ........................................................................... 25
Unborn Victims of Violence (PE1887) ........................................................................................................ 27
Dog Attacks (PE1892) ................................................................................................................................ 29
NatureScot (Decision-making Procedures) (PE1895) ................................................................................ 30
Council Tax Collection Procedures (PE1897) ............................................................................................ 31
Entering Homes without Permission or Warrant (PE1898) ........................................................................ 32
NEW PETITION ................................................................................................................................................. 34
Adult Disability Payment (People Undergoing Cancer Treatment) (PE1913) ............................................ 34
CITIZEN PARTICIPATION AND PUBLIC PETITIONS COMMITTEE
2nd Meeting 2022, Session 6
CONVENER
*Jackson Carlaw (Eastwood) (Con)
DEPUTY CONVENER
*David Torrance (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
COMMITTEE MEMBERS
*Ruth Maguire (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
*Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
*Paul Sweeney (Glasgow) (Lab)
*attended
THE FOLLOWING ALSO PARTICIPATED:
Dr Alasdair Allan (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD)
Carol Mochan (South Scotland) (Lab)
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab)
CLERK TO THE COMMITTEE
Lynn Tullis
LOCATION
The Adam Smith Room (CR5)1 2 FEBRUARY 2022 2
Scottish Parliament Continued Petitions
Citizen Participation and Public Air Traffic Management Strategy Project
Petitions Committee (PE1804)
Wednesday 2 February 2022 10:00
The Convener: We move on to consideration of
[The Convener opened the meeting at 10:00] continued petitions. The update that I have to give
on one or two of the petitions is quite lengthy, so I
Decision on Taking Business in apologise in advance for giving uninterrupted
Private speeches—I do not often make those in the
chamber.
The Convener (Jackson Carlaw): Good Our first continued petition is PE1804, which
morning. I am delighted to welcome everyone to was lodged by Alasdair MacEachen, John Doig
the second meeting in 2022 of the Citizen and Peter Henderson on behalf of Benbecula
Participation and Public Petitions Committee. Community Council. The petition calls on the
Agenda item 1 is a decision on taking business Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish
in private. Do we agree to take item 4 in private? Government to halt Highlands and Islands Airports
Ltd’s air traffic management strategy project and
Members indicated agreement. to conduct an independent assessment of the
decisions and decision-making process of the
project.
I am delighted to welcome Liam McArthur, who
joins us online this morning, and Rhoda Grant,
who is back with us in the committee room. Both
are with us to speak to the petition. Before I come
to them, I will offer a little more background.
The Scottish Government’s latest submission
provides an update following the assurance of
action plan that was conducted in the week
commencing 25 October. The plan was set in the
context of HIAL’s announcement that a framework
for discussion had been agreed with Prospect, the
trade union, to establish a new way forward for the
implementation of the ATMS programme. It noted
that programme delivery activities were largely
paused to enable further delivery options to be
appraised.
The submission confirms that the digital
assurance office, the portfolio, programme and
project assurance team and HIAL would continue
to liaise to ensure that appropriate assurance
arrangements are planned in as decisions are
taken on the programme’s direction.
In its most recent submission, HIAL explains
that, as a result of those developments, all
industrial action was suspended while talks
continued. In addition, new ATMS working groups
were established with 27 air traffic colleagues from
across several airports to help detail the benefits
and risks of a potential way forward. The first of
those groups met on 6 December.
At the end of January, HIAL announced that the
HIAL board had agreed
“the future strategic direction for the ATMS programme.
This will comprise a centralised surveillance operation for3 2 FEBRUARY 2022 4
Sumburgh, Kirkwall, Stornoway, Inverness and Dundee surveillance. There have been some suggestions
airports, based at HIAL’s existing approach radar facility on from HIAL that that was up and ready to go, but
the Inverness Airport Site. Air traffic tower services will
continue to be provided locally at each of these airports.”
that has been refuted by the CAA. It would be
interesting to hear HIAL’s response to that
A late submission from one of the petitioners, challenge, because, fundamentally, if the CAA is
commenting on the detail of that announcement, not convinced, it will not get off the ground.
has been circulated to members. In summary, the
petitioner raises concerns about the timescales for There are many questions that remain to be
the new developments; the £9 million that has answered. The immediate risk to jobs on the
been spent so far; the implementation of islands and at the other airports is to be lifted, but
surveillance radar; the timeline for Inverness to be there is some deep anxiety about the medium to
granted controlled airspace; whether HIAL intends longer term. There is also anxiety about HIAL’s
to introduce controlled airspace at Dundee, handling of a project that seems to have been
Stornoway, Kirkwall and Wick and, if so, when; calamitous and which looks set to rack up more
and moving Benbecula and Wick from air traffic and more costs at the public’s expense.
control to aerodrome flight information service. He If the committee were minded to hear directly
is also concerned about what will happen to New from the petitioners and had time available in
Century house, the building that was bought to which to do so, that would be very valuable, in that
house the combined surveillance centre and more detail could be laid out on some of the
remote tower centre. issues that the committee could usefully continue
The petitioner asks the committee to correspond to keep under review.
directly with the Civil Aviation Authority regarding The Convener: Thank you very much, Mr
the issues raised and would welcome the McArthur.
opportunity to discuss his concerns with the
committee in person. I understand that we heard Has the immediate lifting of threats to jobs
from the petitioner two years ago. maybe underpinned Prospect’s welcome? Have
you had any contact with Prospect?
Like others, I got quite excited when I saw
“Reporting Scotland” feature announcements in Liam McArthur: I think that that must be the
relation to the petition and thought that maybe we motivation. We are at an impasse where, in a
were seeing progress of some kind. However, the sense, HIAL was suggesting that installing remote
petitioners are underwhelmed, to say the least. towers was the only way of achieving the
modernisation that everybody accepts is
Before the committee considers the petition, ask necessary for future air traffic services in the
Liam McArthur and Rhoda Grant whether there is region. Having reached an agreement that lifts that
anything that they would like to update us on, immediate threat to jobs, perhaps Prospect feels
although we do not want to hear the original that things have been moved on. However, there
submissions all over again. Mr McArthur, I will is certainly an anxiety among staff at the local
come to you first. Is there anything that you would level that HIAL is buying the time that it was
like to update us on? always going to need to achieve the remote
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD): I will try towers.
to be as brief as possible, convener. I would be interested to know whether Prospect
The petitioner has set out very well some of the believes that that remains the case, but a number
remaining issues. For example, it is not at all clear of its members, including staff in Orkney and, I
where the idea of radar surveillance has come understand, at other airports, remain anxious
from. It certainly begs some questions about the about the longer-term intentions of HIAL
£3.5 million that was spent on New Century management.
house, which now seems to be a rather expensive Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): I
white elephant in relation to ATMS. That speaks to agree with everything that Liam McArthur has
the concerns that both Rhoda Grant and I, and, said. The news that there has been a pause is
more importantly, the petitioners raised about the welcome, because that is what Prospect was
incremental costs that have been incurred through asking for and, indeed, what the staff and
the process on an objective that was seen as the communities were asking for—they want time to
only show in town but which has miraculously now look at the alternative solutions.
been temporarily dumped. There is an on-going
concern that HIAL may simply dust down the Nobody is arguing that we do not need to
remote tower proposals four or five years down improve safety; the argument was that HIAL’s
the line and seek to reintroduce them. proposals did not provide additional safety but
were about centralisation. They would cause huge
The other point that I stress is about the extent economic damage without providing the safety
to which HIAL is relying on co-operative that people want.5 2 FEBRUARY 2022 6
I would be grateful if the committee would look has it so it would be useful if the committee would
at a number of things. The proposed discussions ask it to publish that report.
about Benbecula and Wick were overlooked
There is also the centralisation of radar
because of the enormity of the proposals, which
surveillance at Inverness. That does not make
impacted all the airports. There is concern that the
sense given that we are to have air traffic control
downgrading of Benbecula and Wick will go
at the airports, so how that decision was reached
ahead. Those airports need safe surveillance and
could be scrutinised. I know that there are
locally based air traffic control. Both Benbecula
concerns in Shetland about that, because the
and Wick are looking at becoming satellite launch
airport there has its own radar and there might be
sites, so they need safe airspace.
an impact if radar were centralised at Inverness.
Benbecula is also host to QinetiQ’s Hebrides
I agree about the other issues that have been
range, which means that there is often a huge
mentioned, such as the use of New Century
amount of air activity when tests are taking place.
house—I do not want to repeat everything.
The Hebrides range also provides a potential
solution, in that it has radar. HIAL could work with The Convener: There are several increasingly
the range to provide that in Benbecula. That would focused and quite serious issues.
be a very affordable course of action that would
not cause huge disruption. Would anybody else like to come in?
David Torrance (Kirkcaldy) (SNP): The
One of the issues in all of this was the
petition has been on-going for quite a while—since
recruitment of air traffic control staff. The air traffic
last session—and we have not been updated by
control staff in Benbecula tend to be young, so
the petitioner for a long time. I am sure that, like
that airport has staff into the future. They are local
people—they are not going to move anywhere. me, committee members have a number of
They will be lost to HIAL if it ends air traffic control questions that they would like to ask the petitioner
and HIAL management. I would like to bring in the
at Benbecula.
petitioner and HIAL management to give evidence
There is also talk of a new island’s impact so that we can ask those questions.
assessment. Therefore, any downgrading of
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife)
Benbecula should surely wait until that impact
assessment has been done. That would be within (Con): I very much concur with that. We have
the spirit of the law. looked at the petition in depth, but from the
information that we have received, it seems that
With regard to Wick, people will be aware of the there are more questions than answers.
closing of Dounreay and the need for an economic
It would be useful to get the petitioner in. There
focus on the area. A lot of work is going on with
are also questions to be asked of the CAA about
renewables and with the maintenance of devices,
but the area needs good air traffic links to other what it is doing with HIAL. It would be useful to
parts of the United Kingdom to be able to attract have some correspondence with the CAA about
the co-operative radar system that has been
jobs. It is very important that it has a safe
discussed in the papers. If we are to understand
airspace. Indeed, we are trying to encourage more
the situation, we require more information. Liam
traffic there.
McArthur and Rhoda Grant have given us a lot of
I will not repeat what the convener said about detail. That has been very useful, but there are still
the CAA’s comments, but it would be well worth questions that we can ask of the petitioner and the
the committee speaking to the CAA to find out CAA.
what is happening, including about Wick perhaps
The Convener: Mr McArthur would like to come
being managed from Orkney. There was some
back in.
discussion about that, and the CAA was not keen.
Liam McArthur: I will be extremely brief,
HIAL used to be very good at staff recruitment.
It used to recruit from local communities. It would convener. I very much welcome the comments
train people up and those people stayed. HIAL from the deputy convener and Alexander Stewart.
had its biggest recruitment issue in Inverness, As Rhoda Grant said, local recruitment is
where people tended to be more mobile. The essential. HIAL almost made the process an
committee should make HIAL look at that again exemplar when it last recruited locally. Since then,
and ensure that it starts recruiting again, because it has moved away from that model and sought to
that is one of its reasons for stepping back—it hire ready-made air traffic controllers. That was
says that if it cannot recruit, it will continue with the always a short-term fix, and it has left the
position as it was. company with some retention issues.
I know that the petitioners were keen to see
Digital Scotland’s second report published. HIAL7 2 FEBRUARY 2022 8
10:15 Protect Scotland’s Remaining Ancient,
It would offer staff at various airports some Native and Semi-native Woodlands and
reassurance if HIAL were to embark on a local Woodland Floors (PE1812)
recruitment drive. The approach has proven to be
The Convener: PE1812, which was lodged by
the best way of not just recruiting but retaining
Audrey Baird and Fiona Baker on behalf of Help
staff. If HIAL management gives evidence to the
Trees Help Us, calls on the Scottish Parliament to
committee, that is a point that could be very
urge the Scottish Government to deliver world-
usefully put to them.
leading legislation giving Scotland’s remaining
The Convener: In your role as Deputy fragments of ancient, native and semi-native
Presiding Officer, you promoted Mr Stewart; my woodlands and woodland floors full legal
deputy convener is David Torrance. protection. The petitioners initially hoped that that
would be done before the 26th United Nations
Liam McArthur: I was talking about the deputy
climate change conference of the parties—
convener and Alexander Stewart, rather than the
COP26—in Glasgow last November.
deputy convener being Alexander Stewart.
I am delighted to welcome Jackie Baillie. Before
The Convener: Thank goodness for that.
I come to Jackie, I will provide a little background.
David Torrance was on the previous Public The committee previously considered the petition
Petitions Committee, which heard from the on 8 September, when we agreed to write to the
petitioner. Given the recent developments, I am Scottish Government to seek an update on its
minded to fall in with the suggestion that we bring response to the deer working group. To date, no
in HIAL. I think that we should write to the CAA in response has been received from the Scottish
the first instance to get its views on the petitioner’s Government. However, the petitioners have made
latest concerns. I would quite like to get some a further submission, in which they raise concerns
information from Prospect about what underpins that Scotland’s ancient woodland, Atlantic
its welcome for the developments and where it rainforest, country parks, remote glens, areas of
now sits in the process. It may well be that that outstanding beauty and farmland are all now being
would lead us to invite Prospect to give evidence overrun by invasive non-native ecosystem-
as well. Are there any other suggestions? Does engineer conifer species.
what I have proposed seem reasonable?
The submission explains that such species
Paul Sweeney (Glasgow) (Lab): I would be already cover around one sixth of the country and
interested to hear from airspace operators—the that, where conifers are not being deliberately
main scheduled carrier, which is Loganair, and planted, they are planting themselves. The
others who use the airspace, such as the training petitioners understand that Scotland added around
school at Dundee airport—to understand what 10,500 hectares of new invasive conifer-
their concerns might be. I do not think that we dominated plantations last year and, by 2024,
have heard anything from them. aims to plant a further 18,000 hectares each year
for felling.
The Convener: Thank you. I was going to ask
the clerks whether that had been covered by any The submission explains that, at the first part of
evidence. I ask the clerks to review that and see the United Nations COP15 biodiversity conference
whether there is scope to follow up on Paul in China, the Intergovernmental Science-Policy
Sweeney’s suggestion, as I think that that is Platform on Biodiversity and Ecosystem Services
another facet of the approach that has to be stated that invasive species and destructive land
understood. use are two of the five biggest threats to the
natural world.
I do not think that there is anything for us to
write to the Minister for Transport about at this The petitioners explain that the UK law on
stage. Are members content to take evidence as escaped non-native trees is set out in the Wildlife
proposed in the first instance? and Countryside Act 1981, which states:
Members indicated agreement. “any person who plants, or otherwise causes to grow,
any plant in the wild at a place outwith its native range is
The Convener: Thank you. I hope that that will guilty of an offence.”
take us forward a little bit and that we can make
The petitioners are concerned that no one appears
our own contribution to this long-standing issue.
to be upholding that law, with the forestry industry
being exempt. The petitioners call for the act to
change to reflect the growing scientific
understanding of the impact of invasive ecosystem
engineers, as well as the forestry industry’s
inability to manage the risks that are associated
with planting invasive conifers across Scotland.9 2 FEBRUARY 2022 10
I express disappointment that we have not had Their investment opens access to tax breaks.
a response from the Scottish Government. There is no income tax, corporation tax or capital
However, I am happy to invite Jackie Baillie, who gains tax in relation to growing timber. In their
is with us this morning, to update us with any brochures, the investment companies talk about
comments that she may wish to contribute. forestry funds providing their high-net-worth clients
with inheritance-tax-efficient structures. I know that
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab): Given your
I digress slightly, but the committee should be
comprehensive introduction to the petition,
aware of the motivation of some of those
convener, you have taken away most of my
companies. It is not about climate change or the
comments.
environment; it is about tax-efficient funds. Some
The Convener: I was worried that that might be might even describe it as tax-avoidance funds for
the case. wealthy clients.
Jackie Baillie: I am grateful to you and to the The companies outbid local communities for
committee for the opportunity to speak to this land, and farmers in those areas are often
petition from Audrey Baird and Fiona Baker, both extremely concerned that productive land is lost.
of whom are my constituents. Members will know Community consultation is meaningless and road
that I am not an expert in ancient or native safety concerns about large haulage lorries going
woodland but, in learning about the petition, I am through small rural communities are swept aside. I
absolutely persuaded of the need to protect our know this, because there is currently a
woodlands, and I therefore hope that the consultation affecting my area for a 200-acre
committee will support its aims. afforestation scheme at Stuckenduff involving the
one and only Gresham House.
The petitioners believe that our ancient and
native woodlands are being colonised. I have Nature and life are all about balance. It would
copies of pictures that show that. I do not know therefore be interesting to know how many
whether it is appropriate to circulate them to commercial afforestation schemes there are, and
members, but a picture does what 1,000 words how many are conifers and how many are native
cannot do. It shows the invasion of non-native woodland. As the petition noted, we have only
species in our countryside. something like 1 per cent of our ancient woodland
left. We need to protect the remaining fragments
Scotland’s ancient woodlands, its Atlantic of that ancient woodland, semi-native woodland
rainforest and other land are being colonised by
and woodland floor for future generations. That
invasive non-native conifer species, which, as you
means providing full legal protection.
said, already cover one sixth of the country. It is
interesting to note that while New Zealand, which You were right to reference the Wildlife and
is remarkably similar to Scotland, is spending Countryside Act 1981, which states:
hundreds of millions of dollars to remove invasive “any person who plants, or otherwise causes to grow,
conifers, we have the opposite situation in any plant in the wild at a place outwith its native range is
Scotland. As you rightly referenced, we planted guilty of an offence.”
10,500 hectares in the past year and have an
The forest industry is exempt, but I would be
ambition to plant an additional 18,000 hectares
curious to know how often that has been enforced
each year in the next three years.
in Scotland in the past 41 years and, indeed, why
New Zealand is not alone. Irish authorities have there are no controls on the forestry industry,
issued contracts for the removal of self-seeded because it has a direct impact on our ancient
conifers in an attempt to protect their woodlands woodlands.
from being colonised in a similar way. As I
I will leave you with a surprising fact, which I
understand it, conifers take anything from six to 40
confess to not being aware of before and which
years to mature. They produce copious amounts
you referenced, convener. According to the United
of seeds that can live in the soil for decades
Nations COP15 in China, invasive species and
before they germinate. Once they take hold, they
destructive land use are two of the five biggest
rapidly invade, outgrow and destroy native
threats to the natural world. I certainly did not
woodlands.
know that before. Surely, it is time for Scotland to
Another set of issues is the impact on local update its legal framework to take account of that
communities, which members may have growing body of knowledge of the impact of
experienced. Such plantations are often promoted invasive non-native species and act to protect
by faceless investment companies, some of which what remains of our ancient native woodland.
are global actors, that buy up land in Scotland. In
The Convener: Do committee members wish to
an article a few days ago, the Daily Record
comment?
described how tax haven companies such as
Gresham House are taking advantage of tree David Torrance: Like you, convener, I was
planting in Scotland. disappointed that we did not get anything back11 2 FEBRUARY 2022 12
from the Scottish Government. Could we invite the to give evidence, so that there is an understanding
Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs and Islands to of the practical reality.
give us evidence on the questions that have been
Were the petitioners responsible for those
raised? The evidence that has been put before us
photographs, Ms Baillie?
is concerning.
Jackie Baillie: They were. My photographic
Ruth Maguire (Cunninghame South) (SNP): It
skills are not as good as theirs.
is an important topic and I, too, would be
interested to hear directly from the cabinet The Convener: No comment. I thank them very
secretary. That would allow us to move things much for that. I wonder whether we would like to
along a bit quicker than letter writing seems to have the petitioners involved, too. As a courtesy, it
have done in this instance. It would be helpful to might be nice to have them.
hear from her.
Alexander Stewart: I, too, indicate my 10:30
disappointment at not having a response from the Jackie Baillie: I think that they would certainly
Scottish Government. It is very much in our favour welcome that.
if we invite the cabinet secretary to comment on
the evidence that we have received. It is useful to The Convener: Are members content with that
have the photographic evidence as well. Ms Baillie approach?
has taken an informed approach. It would be Members indicated agreement.
useful to get the cabinet secretary to answer some
of the questions that she posed. The Convener: I thank members for their
contributions.
Paul Sweeney: The petition is incredibly
important. During COP26, the RSPB did a
fantastic showcase on Scotland’s rainforests,
Prescription and Limitation (PE1860)
which was an eye-opening educational The Convener: PE1860, which was lodged by
experience. Not many people realise that Jennifer Morrison Holdham, calls on the Scottish
rainforests exist in Scotland in the temperate Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to
climate. There is probably a need to mobilise a amend the Prescription and Limitation (Scotland)
broader debate on the issue. We ought to consider Act 1973 to allow retrospective claims to be made.
taking evidence from a wider group of
stakeholders to broaden the base of the evidence The petition was last considered on 17
that we obtain. I am thinking of Forestry and Land November. Members will recall that, in her
Scotland and the RSPB as two suggestions. previous submission, the Minister for Community
Safety advised the committee that the Scottish
It is an urgent concern, particularly with the Government does not hold data relating to the
invasive growth in ancient woodland and the exercise of section 19 of the Prescription and
displacement that is caused by conifer plantations, Limitation (Scotland) Act 1973 and that the
which I think were originally planted for the first Scottish Courts and Tribunals Service cannot
world war. That was the origin of the Forestry interrogate the information that it holds, as it is
Commission; it was about the need to rapidly grow held in a court interlocutor. The committee
timber for the war, but it has had severe long-term therefore agreed to write to the minister to ask
effects over the past century. how the Scottish Government intended to address
the data gap identified by the petition. I think that
The Convener: I thank Jackie Baillie for her
we were all quite surprised by that. The minister
helpful and comprehensive suggestions. Our
promised to write once again to the Scottish
original thought was that we might write to the
Courts and Tribunals Service to raise the issue
cabinet secretary again but, given the focus in
with it.
Scotland on the environmental agenda and the
importance of the issue, it seems to be the sort of The minister also notes that section 19A
issue that the committee was designed to pick up, empowers the court to disapply the time limit and
make some running with and interrogate in some that this discretion is unfettered, stating:
detail.
“what matters is the circumstances in which the courts
I welcome the suggestion that we have the have exercised the discretion, not necessarily the number
of times it has been exercised.”
cabinet secretary before us, and I am happy to
concur with the other suggestions that Mr I thought that the response that we received
Sweeney made. The photographs that we have from the minister was the one that we might have
been given are helpful in illustrating what an hoped to receive the first time round. Are there
invasion can look like. I am happy for the cabinet any comments?
secretary to have sight of those before she comes13 2 FEBRUARY 2022 14
David Torrance: Could we write to the Minister community and place should be at the heart of
for Community Safety to ask for an update on how good government.
she got on with the Scottish Courts and Tribunals
Given that the principal mission of organisations
Service?
such as David MacBrayne Ltd, Caledonian
The Convener: Indeed. I do not know when we Maritime Assets Ltd and Highlands and Islands
can expect the minister will have written, but we Airports Ltd is to serve island communities, it is not
will chase that up until we get an understanding of in the interests of good governance of the boards
what has progressed. of those organisations to be as remote from their
service users as they currently are. I say that as
Island Community Representation on no criticism of existing board members, but I do
Boards (PE1862) not think that any of them probably faces the
experience that I, fairly enough, face of hearing
The Convener: PE1862, which was lodged by people’s views about CalMac Ferries every time I
Rona MacKay, Angus Campbell and Naomi go to buy a pint of milk.
Bremner on behalf of the Uist economic task force,
calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Since the committee last considered the petition
Scottish Government to introduce community in early September, I led a members’ business
representation on boards of public organisations debate in the chamber on reserving seats for
that deliver lifeline services to island communities, islanders on the board of CalMac. There was a
in keeping with the Islands (Scotland) Act 2018. large degree of cross-party consensus on the
need for more representation of islanders. The
I am delighted to welcome back Liam McArthur then transport minister, Graeme Dey, signalled
and to welcome Alasdair Allan, both online, to that the Scottish Government is open to changes,
speak to the petition. Before I come to our guests, and in responding to a recent parliamentary
I will provide a little additional background. question of mine the minister also stated that he
We last considered the petition on 1 September had tasked the newly appointed chair of David
2021. At that meeting, the committee discussed an MacBrayne to look at ways of getting an island-
earlier submission by the Scottish Government, based presence on the boards.
which explained that the requirements for the Briefly, one other development that is relevant to
appointments to a public body board are set out in a petition that you have just considered is that
the public body’s founding legislation. The HIAL has recently confirmed that it will be taking a
committee highlighted that there was different approach to its ATMS plans on air traffic
“nothing in the Scottish Government’s submission to control jobs. The issue with HIAL also partly
suggest that it has any plans to amend founding legislation motivated the petition that we are presently
for public bodies on the basis that lifeline services to island discussing. The announcement comes after five
communities require community representation on their years of bitter dispute with the affected
boards”.—[Official Report, Citizen Participation and Public
Petitions Committee, 1 September 2021; c 19.]
communities and the air traffic controllers trade
union. It is fair to speculate on whether the
The committee therefore agreed to write to the process would have been as long, acrimonious
Scottish Government to clarify whether it had any and protracted if more board members of that
plans to amend founding legislation for such a organisation had been based in island
purpose. As with one of the previous petitions, we communities.
have had no response as yet from the Scottish
Government ahead of our consideration today. In closing, I will borrow a point that Rona
However, I am happy to bring in both of our MacKay from Uist made to me. Last year, Uist and
parliamentary colleagues for further comment. I Lewis both won titles of social enterprise places of
ask Alasdair Allan to comment first. the year. That is a testament to the large number
of social enterprises on the islands, which each
Dr Alasdair Allan (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) have unpaid boards of islanders. Islanders are not
(SNP): I begin by thanking Rona MacKay, Angus strangers to boards and nor, relevantly, is there
Campbell and Naomi Bremner for the work that any shortage of islanders who know about
they have done in my constituency on behalf of seafaring. There exists a large and healthy degree
the Uist economic task force to bring the petition to of involvement in public life in the islands. It would
the committee. be in everyone’s interests if that could be utilised
on the boards of the organisations that deliver
Island communities are all reliant on lifeline
transport links. They are vital to every aspect of lifeline services to them.
our lives. However, the organisations that are I urge the committee to keep the petition open
tasked with delivering those services have virtually and to push for changes in the criteria for board
no one with experience of living in the appointments in the organisations that we have
communities that they serve on their boards. The discussed to give much more prominence to the
petitioners’ submission rightly states that experience of living in an island community.15 2 FEBRUARY 2022 16
The Convener: Unfortunately, Mr McArthur has are given sufficient professional help to engage in
been called to another meeting, so we do not have the planning process, and appointing an
his further contribution to hear. Do members of the independent advocate to ensure that local
committee want to comment? participants are not bullied and intimidated during
public inquiries.
Ruth Maguire: The update on the members’
debate was interesting. Alasdair Allan indicated The petition was last considered by us on 1
that the transport minister at the time was open to September 2021. The committee agreed to write
the suggestion, so I wonder if the best thing for us to a range of stakeholders. I am pleased to say
to do is to write to the cabinet secretary to that responses have now been received from
ascertain the current position, and take things from Scottish Renewables, Planning Aid Scotland, the
there. Royal Town Planning Institute and the petitioners.
We also received a late submission from Finlay
The Convener: Do members agree with that
Carson MSP in support of the petition.
suggestion? We could reference the members’
business debate to which Mr Allan drew attention. The submissions that we received were very
There is wide cross-party interest in the issues detailed and comprehensive. I thank those who
underpinning the petition. We will see what the have taken the time to research the information,
cabinet secretary says in response. It may well be forward it to us and to submit their views on the
that that leads to an evidence session on the issue petition. All of the submissions have been shared
at a later date. with members in the papers that they received in
advance of the meeting, and for people following
Paul Sweeney: Is it worth making the lead
our proceedings, the submissions are all publicly
committee aware of the petition, in the sense that
available on the petition’s website.
it might be worth an inquiry into the basis on which
public appointments are made to the boards of Common themes across the submissions
CalMac and CMAL? I am approaching it less from include: the role of local planning authorities as
a rural perspective and more from a shipbuilding decision makers; ensuring that communities have
perspective, but my understanding is that the access to professional help in navigating the
boards are problematic, to say the least, in how planning process; ensuring that communities have
they govern those agencies. There is very little early notification of section 36 applications;
public oversight of the characters who have been capacity issues for local authorities in meeting
appointed to the boards. There is a potential for future net zero targets; potential learning from
conflicts of interest and there is ignorance of many elsewhere in the UK, for example, local authorities
other aspects of how the organisations should be applying English planning law; the use of inquiries
operating. and how communities can best contribute to them;
and mechanisms to enable any issues with a
The Convener: I suggest that the clerks liaise
developer’s conduct to be formally raised. Do
with the clerks of that committee to see what
members have any comments or suggestions for
understanding they have of the issue. Maybe that
action?
committee can come back to us and we can
decide how its work might fit with anything that we David Torrance: The submissions are very
are doing. detailed, but there are still a lot of questions that
need to be answered. Could we invite the Cabinet
Are we agreed on that approach?
Secretary for Net Zero, Energy and Transport to
Members indicated agreement. provide evidence to the committee?
The Convener: Thank you all, and thank you, Alexander Stewart: I agree that the information
Mr Allan. that we received from the organisations and
individuals is very comprehensive. Once again, if
Onshore Wind Farms (Planning Decisions) the cabinet secretary comes to the committee it
(PE1864) would give us the opportunity to put some of those
questions to him and allow him to respond to the
The Convener: PE1864, on increasing the evidence.
ability of communities to influence planning
decisions for onshore wind farms, was lodged by Ruth Maguire: The issues that are being raised
Aileen Jackson on behalf of Scotland Against feel more like planning issues. Although the
Spin. The petition calls on the Scottish Parliament petition is specifically about wind farms, which
to urge the Scottish Government to increase the relate to energy, the issues raised feel like they
ability of communities to influence planning are more about planning than the environment. I
decisions for onshore wind farms by adopting would be interested to hear others’ reflections on
English planning legislation for the determination that.
of onshore wind farm developments, empowering Paul Sweeney: Further to that, given that the
local authorities to ensure that local communities new national planning framework is currently being17 2 FEBRUARY 2022 18
developed, it might be an opportune moment to try will provide a little bit more of the background,
to be clear about feeding those issues into the which I apologised for the length of a moment ago.
process. I cannot remember off the top of my head
In 2019, the Scottish Health Technologies
which minister is leading that effort, but it would
Group carried out a review into the use of mesh in
perhaps be worthwhile engaging with them in light
primary inguinal hernia repair in men. The review
of the evidence being raised.
concluded that, compared to non-mesh
The Convener: There is a willingness for us to procedures, using mesh resulted in lower rates of
take evidence, but we want to be sure we are recurrence, lower rates of serious adverse events,
taking evidence from the right source. Are and similar or lower risk of chronic pain. The
members happy to delegate to me the decision as advice for NHS Scotland was, therefore, that
to who that would be? surgical mesh should be used in elective repairs in
inguinal hernia in adult males.
There is another group I am quite interested to
hear from. There are repeated references to the The SHTG review was subsequently expanded
powers that local authorities in England have in to include women, examining the outcome of
relation to wind farms. I wonder whether we could mesh versus non-mesh surgery in a variety of
touch base with a representative organisation of groin or abdominal wall hernias. The Scottish
local authorities in England to understand a little Health Technologies Group concluded that current
bit better the actual application of that process. I evidence supports the continued availability of
would like to know whether in practice that has surgical mesh for elective repair of primary ventral
worked in the way that is being suggested and hernias, incisional hernias, and primary inguinal
whether there are any concerns or anxieties hernias in adults in Scotland. The group
among English local authorities about the recommends, however, that consideration should
responsibility that has been devolved to them. be given to patient preference and that patients
should also have access to alternative hernia
Are members content to proceed on that basis?
treatment options such as non-mesh—suture and
Members indicated agreement. natural tissue—repair.
The chief medical officer has also undertaken a
Surgical Mesh and Fixation Devices number of activities relevant to the petition,
(PE1865) including: writing to the board chief executives and
The Convener: PE1865, by Roseanna Clarkin, medical directors to draw their attention to the
Lauren McDougall and Graham Robertson, calls SHTG report’s findings; asking health boards to
on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish consider the availability of non-mesh surgery
Government to suspend the use of all surgical within their health board, and how any skills gaps
mesh and fixation devices. I apologise for the fairly can be addressed; asking health boards to
long preamble. The petition has had something of consider the development of local clinical groups
an airing in the Parliament in connection with the and broader clinical networks for the management
bill on compensation for transvaginal mesh of complex cases; and asking medical directors to
surgery that was recently passed. The petition remind clinicians of their obligations under the
calls on the Parliament to suspend the use of principle of realistic medicine, of informed consent
surgical mesh and fixation devices while a review and of the importance of recording both the
of all surgical procedures that use polyester, content and outcome of such discussions.
polypropylene or titanium is carried out and With regard to the issues raised about the
guidelines for the surgical use of mesh are quality and authenticity of certain materials being
established. used, the minister states that the Scottish
Government contacted the Medicines and
10:45 Healthcare Regulatory Agency in 2018, which
confirmed that there was no new evidence to
The petition was last considered on 17 prompt regulatory action and that the products in
November 2021 and at that meeting the question remained acceptably safe when used as
committee agreed to write to the Minister for intended.
Public Health, Women’s Health and Sport and to
the Shouldice hospital in Canada. Responses The committee also wrote to the Shouldice
have been received from the minister, the hospital in Canada, as the leading experts in
Shouldice hospital, Sling the Mesh campaign and natural tissue repair. In what I thought was a
the petitioners. fascinating submission, Shouldice states that in its
own practice, surgical mesh is not used unless
I am delighted that Jackie Baillie is still with us absolutely necessary and that has led to it being
this morning and I welcome Carol Mochan MSP, used in less than 2 per cent of cases. The hospital
who joins us online; both members wish to speak specialises exclusively in abdominal wall hernia
to the petition. Before I bring in my colleagues, I repair. It states that where the body’s natural19 2 FEBRUARY 2022 20
tissue is strong enough to support the surgical I have been contacted by one of the petitioners,
repair, natural tissue repair should always be used Roseanna Clarkin, and she shared with me the
and where underlying patient tissue is poor, evidence from the Shouldice hospital in Canada. I
surgical mesh may be necessary in some femoral know that the committee has seen that evidence.
and large incisional hernia repairs. All the
In the past week, I have also been emailed by a
hospital’s surgeons are trained to do a natural
number of men and women across Scotland who
tissue repair as their first choice; natural tissue
have experienced post-operative complications
repair should be the first choice for all primary
after the use of mesh. Their stories are
inguinal hernias, most recurrent inguinal hernias,
heartbreaking. They are living in excruciating pain.
most femoral hernias, most epigastric and
Many of them have had to give up work. Their
umbilical hernias, and small incisional hernias.
fears are somehow being dismissed as
Shouldice also notes that since mesh was psychological and not physical. Some have had to
introduced in the 1980s, the recurrence rate for go private because the national health service is
inguinal hernia repair—more than 85 per cent of refusing to help them. Some have been so low
most of its hernia repair—has not improved. There they have considered taking their own life. You will
has been a staggering increase in post-operative appreciate, convener, that those stories are
complications not seen prior to mesh. Chronic and remarkably similar to the stories that we heard
debilitating pain and other severe complications from women who experienced difficulties as a
such as mesh shrinkage, mesh migration, and consequence of transvaginal mesh. The evidence
related nerve entrapment are widespread. There of problems with mesh appears to be increasing,
are no side effects of tissue repair if it is done not just in this country but in other countries
correctly. Training for surgeons on the natural around the world.
tissue technique ranges from three months for an
I am astonished that on 25 January, the Scottish
experienced fellowship general surgeon to six to
Government signed a deal with mesh providers to
nine months for an inexperienced general
provide more mesh for more mesh surgeries for
surgeon.
the next 24 months at a cost of £3.5 million.
The Sling the Mesh campaign shared the results Equally, I am not aware whether it is a matter of
of its recent survey of its 9,300 members with routine for alternative surgeries to be offered and I
experience of vaginal, abdominal, pelvic, rectal, wonder whether that is something that the
hernia mesh and mesh following mastectomy. It committee would consider exploring.
notes that one in four have considered taking their
Given the experience of the transvaginal mesh
life, six in 10 suffer depression, one third have
campaigners, I ask the committee to ask for an
been forced to give up their work, one in four now
independent review—not an internal review—and
need a stick to walk, and one in 14 now need a
get the data to understand the scale of the
mobility scooter or wheelchair.
problem that is starting to emerge here. The
In their submissions, the petitioners welcome committee should also consider asking the
the information contained in the Shouldice hospital Scottish Government for mesh removal and other
submission and ask for further information to be mitigations for those affected.
sought on the use of protacks, which are devices
Carol Mochan (South Scotland) (Lab): I am
used to fix mesh to soft tissue. The petitioners
quite new to the subject matter and I want to put
believe that there is evidence to suggest that a
on record that I am interested in the way the
considerable sum of money has been spent
matter has progressed. Similar to other members,
recently procuring hernia mesh and other fixation
I have been involved in the mesh debate with
devices and they feel that that money could have
women in relation to transvaginal mesh. It is
been spent on investigating and teaching natural
important that we use the evidence that we have
tissue repair. The petitioners also query why mesh
from other areas.
is still being bought and why clinicians are not yet
accurately and systematically recording the effects I support the overall sentiment of the petition: it
of such material on patients. is a perfectly reasonable request that a review is
held and that guidelines around the surgical use of
We have gathered quite a lot of evidence since
mesh are established. The petitioners have
we last considered the petition. I invite both Jackie
brought evidence to the minister and the
Baillie and Carol Mochan to contribute ahead of
committee has gone over other evidence. It is
comments from committee members.
incumbent on us to ensure that reasonable
Jackie Baillie: Many thanks to you, convener, requests are respected; it seems reasonable for
and to the committee for allowing me to speak to the Citizens Participation and Public Petitions
the petition. Given your detailed knowledge and Committee to take action and at least further
interest in the area, I feel as though I am pushing scrutinise what can be done to support the
an open door. petition.21 2 FEBRUARY 2022 22
Thank you very much for the opportunity to whether we can adopt those methods. We could
speak today. I hope to keep an eye on what is use the pilot as a control against standard
happening around mesh for those people. procedures and see whether it produces
demonstrable effects that could improve patient
The Convener: I am grateful for that. Do any
care.
members of the committee wish to comment?
Ruth Maguire: I am thankful for the evidence
Alexander Stewart: I am amazed at what has
that we have been given. It has certainly been
already been achieved through the campaigns in
eye-opening. I think that one person in pain and
the past, but looking at the current situation, it
distress and not being believed is one too many.
would appear that lessons have not been learned.
That said, it is important that we understand the
There is a real similarity between what happened
scale. Based on what has happened previously
to the women and what is now happening to the
and our experience of what happened to the
men. The Shouldice hospital report is eye-
women, I would like to invite the minister to come
opening; it is important for us to have that
and give evidence. It is important to start that
information and to collate some of the issues that
dialogue. It is almost too big to just write and ask
have been raised.
for some information. We should have an
We need to seek more clarity on all of it. We evidence session in the first instance.
should at least be writing to the chief medical
The Convener: We took evidence from the
officer in Scotland to ask what is happening with
minister prior to your joining the committee, but
the process. Ms Baillie has some very strong
there is every reason to suggest that we might
views about what is taking place and the funding
wish to have the minister back.
that has been provided. If we do not take some
action, are we just saving up more problems for David Torrance: I am like my colleagues in that
individuals in the future? I want us to write to the I am very interested in the petition as somebody
chief medical officer and also to ensure that the who has been there from the very start in relation
minister for public health comes back to the to the mesh cases. It is important that we get to
committee and gives us more updates on what is the bottom of the matter. Rather than write to the
taking place. chief medical officer, could we ask him to give
evidence? We could invite somebody from the
I would have hoped that, following the whole
hospital in Canada to give evidence to the
debate and debacle with transvaginal mesh, we
committee, too, so that we could ask questions.
would have learned some lessons, but it would
Let us just push the petition on and make progress
appear that we are repeating some of the failures
on it.
and we are putting individuals through the trauma
that some women experienced in the past. We The Convener: The associated concern of
need to get real clarity on all of that and we should hernia mesh was referred to from time to time
continue the petition on those grounds. during the progress of the committee’s dealings
with the mesh petition previously. There was an
Paul Sweeney: I support what Jackie Baillie
immediately united, informed body of women who
said about the submission from Roseanna Clarkin.
drove the transvaginal mesh petition forward. The
It was quite shocking to learn that the vendor,
issue of hernia mesh was understood to be there
Covidien UK, was supplying Parietex mesh, which
but did not have the same profile.
has been subject to Food and Drug Administration
restrictions in the United States because it has What is depressing is that the pathway seems to
been directly linked to postoperative complications be exactly the same: a lack of any subsequent
and adverse effects in patients. Perversely, we are follow-up to establish whether issues have arisen,
in a position in Scotland where we have fewer a denial of the association of any issues with the
medical clinical protections for patients than in the mesh that has been fitted, and the calling into
United States. I am sure that if you asked the question of the motivations or understanding of
average person in the street which jurisdiction they those who are themselves feeling pain and that
think offers more protections to patients, they pain being dismissed as not real but imagined.
would say Scotland, when as a result of the Even during the debates on recent legislation, I
Government’s decision, that is not the case. was reluctant to conflate the two issues because I
felt that we did not have the same body of
It is critical that we pursue the issue. The
evidence. As a consequence of our pursuit of this
submission from the Shouldice hospital offers an
petition, the wider body of evidence is beginning to
insight into an alternative model that is quite
emerge. Therefore, I think that it is very much an
compelling. In light of that remarkable evidence, it
issue that the committee should pursue further
would be worth asking the health secretary to
and that we should leave the petition open.
engage with it directly and perhaps look at the
opportunity to set up a pilot project in Scotland
with a particular hospital or surgical centre, to see23 2 FEBRUARY 2022 24
11:00 establish whether the qualification called for in the
I would very much like to welcome the minister petition could be introduced, what would be
back to the committee. The minister should have required in introducing it and what, if any,
the opportunity to properly consider the evidence obstacles there might be to doing so.
that we have received from the Shouldice hospital. A response has been received from the SQA. It
Taking evidence from representatives of the advises that the decision regarding
Shouldice hospital would be slightly problematic in
terms of timing because they will not be working to “what qualifications must be in place to provide students
with the opportunity to learn BSL, or any other additional
the same clock as our committee—I imagine that language, from primary 1 ... is not strictly in SQA’s gift.”
they are all fast asleep at the moment—but we
could think about that. It advises the committee to seek advice from those
in the Scottish Government with responsibility for
I would like to hear from the chief medical officer the language learning in Scotland: a 1+2 approach
and the minister. I would certainly like to policy. The submission explains that the particular
understand that evidence and flag up in advance qualification types that are deemed to be part of
the procurement of the particular mesh material the national qualifications suite include national
because I do not understand why that has courses and national units at each level from
happened. All the issues look broadly similar. SCQF level 1 up to SCQF level 7. Furthermore,
When we heard from the minister previously, the the different levels in the national qualifications
Government was working on informed consent help SQA to recognise the attainment of learners
procedures. That seemed fair enough, but we of all abilities and ensure that there are
have been here before. appropriate progression routes. SQA advises that
We can assume that there is now a broader it would not normally seek to develop a course in a
body of men who have concerns. However, a new subject at just one level.
number of men have contacted me to say that To ensure a fair appraisal of new requests, SQA
they have had perfectly successful mesh advises that it has developed criteria that need to
procedures and it has made a huge difference. I be met before considering developing national
want to understand the volume and the courses in a new language. Those are evidence of
relationship between those who feel that they have demand for a course; sufficient qualified and
had successful mesh procedures and those who registered teachers; strategic support from a range
have had unsuccessful mesh procedures. In the of partners within Scottish education; and the
case of transvaginal mesh, the balance was availability of specific grant funding from the
fundamentally on the side of those who had Scottish Government.
experienced serious health consequences. That
may have to form the basis of any informed The SQA advises that previously BSL has failed
consent in the event that there is an argument for to meet the first and second criteria, which were
the mesh process proceeding. the focus of considerable debate after the British
Sign Language (Scotland) Act 2015 was passed
Are we content to take and consider further and while the BSL national plan for 2017 to 2023
evidence from those parties that have been was being developed. Those were the evidence
suggested? for demand for a course and sufficient qualified
Members indicated agreement. and registered teachers. SQA advises that it has
developed awards in BSL rather than national
British Sign Language (National courses.
Qualification) (PE1867) I think that we know quite a bit more than we did
The Convener: PE1867, which was lodged by before. Do members have any comments or
Scott Macmillan, calls on the Scottish Parliament suggestions for action?
to urge the Scottish Government to encourage the Paul Sweeney: The point about the capacity to
Scottish Qualifications Authority to establish a deliver the course is interesting, and I think that
national qualification in British Sign Language at the SQA’s response is fair. I am not aware of the
Scottish credit and qualifications framework level number of people in Scotland who are qualified in
2. BSL, but it might be worth trying to establish a
I am delighted to say that our meeting is being route to a solution with Scottish Government
streamed in BSL for those people watching and colleagues.
hopefully for our petitioners, who might now be It might also be worth trying to engage with the
watching the consideration of the petition. further education sector, perhaps including certain
The petition was last considered by the colleges that might be able to offer BSL as a
committee on 8 September 2021. At that meeting, qualification. On that basis, if we are able to
the committee agreed to write to the SQA to establish some understanding about the logistics
of delivery, it might enable the SQA to workYou can also read
