PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES - HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT (HANSARD)
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Thursday Volume 680
24 September 2020 No. 107
HOUSE OF COMMONS
OFFICIAL REPORT
PARLIAMENTARY
DEBATES
(HANSARD)
Thursday 24 September 2020© Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2020
This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence,
which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/.1109 24 SEPTEMBER 2020 1110
House of Commons because of covid restrictions, whether in music venues,
comedy clubs or theatres, or any of the freelance workers
in the sector who already receive no help at all, as we
saw from the Musicians Union survey this week. When
Thursday 24 September 2020
will the help that has already been promised in the
package the Minister mentioned actually arrive for
The House met at half-past Nine o’clock people in the sector, and will the new scheme be targeted
to supply life support to our genuinely world-beating
creative industries?
PRAYERS
Caroline Dinenage: The Government’s world-class
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] support package has included the self-employed income
Virtual participation in proceedings commenced support scheme, and about two thirds of our sector
(Order, 4 June). have been covered by that. Then, of course, there are
the very generous extensions to universal credit as well.
[NB: [V] denotes a Member participating virtually.] However, we know that it is very distressing for those
who have fallen between the gaps. That is why Arts
BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS Council England has made an additional £95 million of
additional support available for individuals who are
CONTINGENCIES FUND 2019-20 affected.
Resolved,
Rosie Duffield: Equity, the performers’ union, has
That there be laid before this House an Account of the
Contingencies Fund 2019-20, showing: drawn up a four-pillar plan to save the industry: providing
A Statement of Financial Position
financial support for workers, enabling the safe opening
of venues, protecting vital arts infrastructure, and
A Statement of Cash Flows and
eliminating gaps in representation and pay. I know that
Notes to the Accounts; together with the Certificate and the Minister has met Equity, so are the Government
Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon.—(Maria
Caulfield.)
prepared to back its plan and save our performing arts?
Caroline Dinenage: I thank the hon. Lady for her
question. I know that arts and culture is massively
Oral Answers to Questions important in Canterbury, which she represents. In fact,
it has received over £245,000 of emergency funding so
far from the Arts Council. We have listened to the
sector at every stage of this terrible pandemic. I meet its
DIGITAL, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT representatives on an almost weekly basis, from right
across entertainment, arts, culture and creative industries.
The Secretary of State was asked— ACE is currently processing over 4,000 applications for
more than £880 million of grant funding. We are doing
absolutely everything we can to support the sector.
Creative Industries: Covid-19
Mr Sharma [V]: Hundreds of my constituents are
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): What further highly skilled and self-employed in the creative industries,
steps he will take to support people in the creative but most of them have seen their incomes plummet,
industries who are unable to return to work as a result with no real chance of recovery for the next six months
of covid-19 restrictions. [906484]
at least. I give the Minister another opportunity to
reconfirm that the previous package is not working and
Rosie Duffield (Canterbury) (Lab): What steps he has
is not effective. Will she commit to a new package that
taken to support the creative industries during the
will save their incomes and ensure that they and their
covid-19 outbreak. [906496]
families do not face poverty?
Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): What
steps he has taken to support the creative industries Caroline Dinenage: I cannot agree with the hon.
during the covid-19 outbreak. [906500] Gentleman that this package of support is not working.
In his own constituency of Ealing, Southall, there has
The Minister for Digital and Culture (Caroline Dinenage): been £47,000-worth of emergency funding so far, and
I recognise the huge contribution that the creative industries £500,000 in total support from Arts Council England in
make both to the UK’s international reputation and to this financial year. We know that, more than anything,
our economy, contributing over £100 billion in gross those who work in the sector just want to get back to
value added. The Government have provided unprecedented doing what they love. The £1.5 billion cultural recovery
support to employees and businesses through the furlough fund will secure the future of performing arts and live
scheme and the £1.57 billion cultural recovery fund, events and protect jobs in the industry to allow them to
and we will continue to do all we can to provide support do just that.
and get the sector back up and running.
Tracy Brabin (Batley and Spen) (Lab/Co-op): Millions
Kevin Brennan: I am afraid that what has been trailed in our country long for live performing arts to return,
by the Treasury in the media today will not do anything none more so than those who work in those industries.
to help those in the creative industries who cannot work Some 70% of theatre workers are self-employed or1111 Oral Answers 24 SEPTEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 1112
freelance, but many are ineligible for the self-employed Miss Sarah Dines (Derbyshire Dales) (Con): What
income support scheme and have been excluded from progress his Department has made on delivering support
Government support since March, bringing extreme for the culture and heritage sector through the culture
hardship. They desperately need the sector to be back recovery fund. [906498]
up and running. While we support the Government’s
road map to reopening, we know that socially distanced The Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and
shows are simply not viable without insurance against Sport (Oliver Dowden): Arts and heritage are the heart
covid cancellations. The Digital, Culture, Media and and soul our communities across the whole nation.
Sport Committee agrees, warning that without a pandemic That is why we announced the unprecedented £1.57 billion
indemnity scheme, culture recovery fund to help countless organisations to
“efforts to resume filming, touring and live performance are weather this covid storm. We have already saved
doomed to failure”. 135 grassroots music venues from imminent collapse.
What representations has the Minister made to her Arts Council England and other DCMS arms-length
Treasury colleagues for insurance support similar to bodies are currently assessing thousands of applications
that for film and television so that our incredible creative from other organisations, and successful applicants will
workforce can get back to what they do best when it is be informed from October.
safe to do so?
Laura Trott: Despite heroic efforts from the local
Caroline Dinenage: As I have already articulated, I community and local councils, the much-loved Stag
meet the sector on a very regular basis, and actually it theatre in Sevenoaks is at risk. Will my right hon.
has been its feedback that has helped to form, to shape Friend wish the Stag luck in its upcoming application to
and to drive the cultural recovery fund as we have it the culture recovery fund? If it is successful and is saved,
today. As I have explained, there is £95 million of will he join me at the annual pantomime to mark the
additional support in there for individuals, including end of a challenging year?
freelancers. We continue to listen. We continue to talk
to Treasury colleagues to make sure that we are creative, Mr Speaker: I think it’s more a cheque than luck!
inventive and thoughtful and doing everything we can
to get our sectors back up and running. Oliver Dowden: Of course, I am very happy to wish it
the very best of luck. The actual decision will be made
TV Licences: Over-75s Concession by Arts Council England. Were the theatre to be successful,
and indeed in any event, I would of course be delighted
Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab): to join my hon. Friend in a pantomime performance. I
What plans the Government has to reintroduce the TV know it is facing very difficult circumstances at the
licence concession for people aged over 75. [906485] moment, particularly as a not-for-profit charity dependent
on income from ticket sales. I understand that it has
The Minister for Media and Data (Mr John Whittingdale): made its application and that it is currently being considered.
The Government remain disappointed by the decision
of the BBC to restrict the over-75 concession to those Mr Speaker: On that basis, she’s behind you—Sarah
on pension credit. However, the responsibility for that Dines!
was given to the BBC under the Digital Economy
Act 2017, passed by Parliament, and it is a matter for Miss Dines: Will the Secretary of State consider
the BBC. utilising leftover funds from the culture recovery fund
to create an emergency fund that historic house wedding
Gerald Jones: For many older and vulnerable residents, venues, like many in the Derbyshire Dales constituency,
losing their free TV licence means losing not only will be eligible to apply to for emergency assistance in
entertainment and a source of news, but companionship, these difficult times?
which is hugely important as we go into winter and
many people across the country face restrictions on Oliver Dowden: My hon. Friend makes a very important
movement. Will the Minister do the right thing, stop point. Our wonderful country houses are a real pillar of
hiding behind the BBC, take another look at this policy, our cultural life. Indeed, I had a wonderful visit to
stick to his manifesto commitment and keep free television Knebworth House in Hertfordshire, and I know what a
licences for over-75s until 2022? central role they play not just as cultural institutions but
as venues. As she will know, the Government have
Mr Whittingdale: The Conservative manifesto did provided extensive support across the economy through
say that we believed it should be funded by the BBC. furlough, business loans and VAT relief that will have
Those who are on low incomes and are eligible for benefited them, but of course we will continue to look
pension credit will continue to receive a free licence. I at other proposals.
hope that all those who may be eligible make sure they
receive pension credit. The Government continue to International Funding
believe that the BBC needs to do more to support older
people. Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP): What
steps he is taking to help maintain access to international
Culture Recovery Fund funding for the culture sector after the transition period.
[906487]
Laura Trott (Sevenoaks) (Con): What progress his
Department has made on delivering support for the The Minister for Digital and Culture (Caroline Dinenage):
culture and heritage sector through the culture recovery By taking back control of our money, we are able to
fund. [906486] focus on spending that reflects the needs and ambitions1113 Oral Answers 24 SEPTEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 1114
of UK artists and creative professionals. This includes The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital,
considering alternatives to former international funding Culture, Media and Sport (Nigel Huddleston): The
programmes. We are committed to supporting our world- Government fully understand that fans want to be back
leading culture sector to continue to grow and flourish. watching live sport—so do all of us—and we continue
to work with the sector on solutions and innovations.
Dr Whitford: As we have already heard from Members Having spectators at some sporting events is still possible,
in this Chamber this morning, the culture sector has but as set out in our road map, sporting event pilots and
been hit hard by the covid pandemic and many the full return of fans to stadiums will only take place
organisations are struggling to simply survive. EU when it is safe to do so. The Government took the
membership is not a requirement of the programme, so decision to pause test events and the other expansions
why are the Government ending the UK’s membership planned for 1 October because of the sharp upward
of Creative Europe? trajectory of covid-19 cases. We recognise that this news
will be disappointing to many fans and to sport, but we
Caroline Dinenage: Creative Europe funds co-operation have had to make difficult decisions that give us the best
across cultural and audio-visual sectors, as the hon. Lady chance of containing the virus this winter.
knows. The value of it is roughly £4 million a year. The
Government decided that the UK would not continue Christian Wakeford: Football’s coming home—or so
to participate, but UK beneficiaries will continue to we thought. While it is extremely heartening to see the
benefit from the programmes for the lifetime of their return of cricket, rugby, football and other sporting
project, which in many cases runs beyond 2020. In the fixtures to our national life, such as Bury AFC, Prestwich
meantime, we are working in partnership with the devolved Heys and Radcliffe in my constituency, we must also be
Administrations on domestic alternatives, which will be mindful of the rate of infection. Can my hon. Friend
considered as part of the forthcoming spending review. provide an update on the plan to continue reopening
these activities, given the risks posed by covid?
John Nicolson (Ochil and South Perthshire) (SNP)
[V]: That was simply not good enough from the Minister. Nigel Huddleston: I know that my hon. Friend is a
The preamble to the constitution of UNESCO states: huge sports fan; we have spoken about the sector on
“since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men many occasions. I agree that it has been fantastic to see
that the defences of peace must be constructed”, so many sports return at both professional and grassroots
and that is the guiding principle of so many cross-border level, and I pay tribute to the work that sporting bodies
cultural initiatives such as Creative Europe. The decision have done with the Department for Digital, Culture,
to end our participation in the programme not only Media and Sport to make that possible. Sport is hugely
erects barriers to cultural exchange but sends a loud important to the nation’s physical and mental wellbeing,
and clear message to our closest neighbours that Britain and although yesterday’s announcements mean that
is closed for collaboration. With non-EU members such adult indoor team sport cannot take place from tomorrow,
as Norway, Ukraine and even Tunisia participating, can organised outdoor team sport, outdoor and indoor
the Minister explain the UK Government’s decision to exercise classes and outdoor licensed physical activity
withdraw from Creative Europe as anything other than are still exempt from the rule of six and can continue to
narrow-minded Brexit isolationism? take place in larger numbers. As the chief medical
officer, chief scientific adviser and others have advised,
Caroline Dinenage: I have already explained that we covid cases are on a sharp upward trajectory, and we are
intend to find an alternative to the Creative Europe introducing measures to attempt to slow the spread of
fund, which will be set out as part of the comprehensive the virus.
spending review. I do not really like having lectures
from the hon. Gentleman about what is “good enough”. Sara Britcliffe: Match day revenue and getting people
This Government have worked round the clock with the through the turnstiles is vital to clubs like Accrington
sector to provide £1.57 billion of support in the form of Stanley in my area, which has worked tirelessly to work
a cultural recovery package, £97 million of which has towards bringing fans back safely. As the Minister can
gone to Scotland, and yet—guess what?—only £59 million imagine, the announcement was a devastating blow to
of that has so far been announced for disposal. What clubs like mine. Can he assure me that he is working
have they done—trousered the rest of it? towards a road map to bring fans back safely and that
further financial support is being considered for local
Spectator Sports: Covid-19 clubs?
Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Con): What steps Nigel Huddleston: My hon. Friend is right that football
his Department is taking to support the return of clubs at all levels are the bedrock of our local communities.
spectators at live sports events during the covid-19 We have seen that during coronavirus more than ever. I
outbreak. [906488] spoke to the Football Supporters’ Association yesterday
and reiterated our thanks. Of course, grassroots football
Sara Britcliffe (Hyndburn) (Con): What steps his will continue, and, as she may know, non-elite football
Department is taking to support the return of spectators is covered by the recreational team sport framework
at live sports events during the covid-19 outbreak. guidance, which does permit spectators. The Football
[906491] Association’s definition of non-elite football means that
leagues below national leagues north and south level 6
Alan Mak (Havant) (Con): What steps his Department can continue with spectators. We will continue to work
is taking to support the return of spectators at live closely with the Sports Grounds Safety Authority and
sports events during the covid-19 outbreak. [906494] sporting bodies to support the safe return of spectators1115 Oral Answers 24 SEPTEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 1116
to stadiums more widely when the public health situation the issuing of a “no earlier than” date with three months’
allows. I can confirm that we are in discussions with notice, better, wider testing and funds specifically targeted
football governing bodies about further support measures. at allowing adaptations to be made for safer reopening?
Alan Mak: As its honorary vice-president, I know Nigel Huddleston: I thank my hon. Friend for his
that, like other non-league clubs, Havant and Waterlooville comments and very much appreciate the work that he
Football Club relies on match-day income for its financial and the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee
sustainability. What steps is my hon. Friend taking to have done. I would be more than happy to discuss his
allow non-league football fans safely back in stadiums proposals further and thank him for his involvement so
as soon as possible, and what action is there to help far. I wish that I could stand here and give definitive
them financially in the meantime? timescales for what we will be able to do, but, as we live
in such uncertain times, I am unable to do so. I can
Nigel Huddleston: I thank my hon. Friend for his assure him that we will endeavour to give as much
work in this area. In the many conversations we have guidance and notice as possible, and I look forward to
had about football and other sports, he has shown that working with him further.
he is not only a great advocate for sport, but indeed for
Havant and his constituents. As I have said previously, Local Newspapers: Covid-19
spectators are allowed to non-elite football events, but
the Football Association’s definition of “elite” extends Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab): What
to the national league south, in which my hon. Friend’s steps his Department is taking to support local, independent
club competes and therefore does not allow for fans at newspapers during the covid-19 outbreak. [906489]
the moment. We understand that the restrictions that
have been put in place will cause financial difficulties The Minister for Media and Data (Mr John Whittingdale):
for clubs, as they rely so much on match-day income. The Government recognise the vital importance of local
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I truly and regional newspapers, particularly during this pandemic.
understand the seriousness of this, and we are working That is why we designated journalists as key workers
closely with sporting bodies to see how we can support and ran a £35 million public information campaign to
them further. carry covid messaging in more than 600 titles.
Mr Speaker: We now come to shadow Minister Alison Mr Dhesi: We in Slough are fortunate to have two
McGovern. brilliant local newspapers, the Slough Express and the
Slough Observer, which play a vital role in our local
Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): The democracy, ensuring that the good people of Slough are
Government’s failures on track and trace have consequences well informed with reliable and accurate news reporting,
for football clubs, as we have heard from Conservative but, like many of their counterparts across our country,
Members of Parliament this morning. We all want to local journalism is under threat. Their trade body News
know what the plan is to save the game we love. Suppose, Media Association has repeatedly called for business
as has been indicated in the media, that the premier rates relief, but those calls seem to have fallen on deaf
league is not prepared to underwrite the rest of football, ears. The National Union of Journalists has proposed a
who then will be to blame when clubs collapse? Will it detailed news recovery plan to ensure the survival of
be the premier league, or will it be Conservative Ministers, excellent journalism, which is there for all of us. Can the
speaking from this Dispatch Box? Minister advise us, before we lose even more valued
local newspapers, when the Government will finally
Nigel Huddleston: I share the hon. Member’s passion listen to and support this important sector?
for sport and football, and I recognise and acknowledge
the Opposition’s support for the measures that we Mr Whittingdale: I have no doubt that the newspapers
announced this week. I can assure her that we are in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency are doing an
having detailed conversations with sport, including with excellent job, and I have had a number of conversations
football. We appreciate that this latest announcement with the News Media Association and other publishing
will have economic consequences for sports, and we had organisations. The Government have extended £1,500
been hoping for the return of spectators that bring in so business rates relief for local newspaper offices, but we
much income. Where they can, we will expect the top will obviously continue to look at what additional measures
tiers of professional sport to look at ways in which we can take to support newspapers.
sport can support itself with the Government focusing
on those most in need. Rural Mobile Coverage
Mr Speaker: I call the Chair of the Select Committee, Edward Timpson (Eddisbury) (Con): What progress
Julian Knight. his Department has made on improving mobile coverage
in rural areas. [906492]
Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con): I thank the Minister
for his engagement on this issue and for his commitment Mr Gagan Mohindra (South West Hertfordshire) (Con):
and hard work. Obviously, the progress of this virus is a What progress his Department has made on improving
body blow to sectors facing what is in no small terms a mobile coverage in rural areas. [906499]
potential extinction event. Does he agree with my
Committee in its letter to the Secretary of State early The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital,
today that lessons can be learned from this aborted Culture, Media and Sport (Matt Warman): The Government
attempt to reopen sport and live entertainment, such as have agreed a £1 billion deal with mobile network1117 Oral Answers 24 SEPTEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 1118
operators to deliver the shared rural network, and this carry out that obligation is a matter that Ofcom is
landmark deal will see operators collectively increase looking at, and it decided to do that without our having
mobile phone coverage throughout the UK to 95% by even spoken to it.
the end of 2025, with legally binding coverage commitments.
The exact site deployments will be managed by the Sports and Music: Covid-19 Restrictions
operators, but I am pleased to say that the shared masts
have already gone live in Wales, the Peak district and Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab): What steps he
elsewhere. has taken to ensure parity in the application of covid-19
restrictions to sports and music groups. [906497]
Edward Timpson: I very much welcome the introduction
and now the roll-out of the shared rural network, but The Minister for Digital and Culture (Caroline Dinenage):
the end of 2025 is still a long way off for many of my In the light of the recent upsurge in covid-19 cases,
constituents, who have atrocious mobile coverage compared indoor sport and music groups must follow the rule of
with better served urban users, yet pay the same price. six. However, outdoor team sport and exercise are largely
Can my hon. Friend give me some reassurance that the exempted from the rules, and, of course, these restrictions
roll-out will be done as quickly as possible, particularly will be regularly reviewed.
in the hardest hit areas, such as Eddisbury, so that they
can get the reliable, equitable 4G network they need? Alex Davies-Jones [V]: Brass bands and choirs are a
core part of our cultural identity. The guidance in terms
Matt Warman: My hon. Friend is right that far too of brass bands and choirs rehearsing and performing
much of the country does not yet have the mobile together again has been unclear, confusing and, at
coverage it needs and deserves, and that is why the times, even contradictory. Will the Minister today please
shared rural network exists. As I said in my answer, it is provide clarity on the guidance for rehearsals and clear
already being rolled out, and its positive effects will be support for these groups, because the only thing full of
felt well before 2025. I look forward, with my hon. hot air at the moment seems to be this Government?
Friend and others, to engaging with the mobile networks
to make sure that those plans come forward as quickly Caroline Dinenage: I completely understand the hon.
as possible. Lady’s frustration; it has been really difficult to bring
back choirs and orchestras at an amateur level, because
it has been difficult to establish the risks. However, we
Mr Speaker: Gagan Mohindra? Not here.
do know that non-professional performing art groups,
including choirs, orchestras and drama groups, can
BBC News and Political Coverage continue to rehearse and perform together in a covid-secure
venue, where that is a planned activity and they can
Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab): What recent carry it out in a way that ensures there is no interaction
discussions he has had with Ofcom on the BBC’s between groups of six at any one time.
compliance with its statutory duties on local and regional
news and political coverage for the English regions. Football Clubs: Covid-19 Restrictions
[906493]
Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): What
The Minister for Media and Data (Mr John Whittingdale): assessment he has made of the financial effect of covid-19
The BBC charter requires the BBC to serve audiences restrictions on football clubs. [906502]
across all the UK nations and regions. How it does so is
a matter for the BBC, but I share the concern about the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital,
recently announced cuts, and I welcome Ofcom’s intention Culture, Media and Sport (Nigel Huddleston): Football
to examine this. clubs are at the heart of our local communities, and
many have made their towns globally famous. The
Government have provided an unprecedented package
Grahame Morris: I thank the Minister for that response, of support to businesses throughout this period, and
and I assume that he agrees that local and regional news many football clubs have benefited from those measures.
coverage and political coverage are a vital aspect of the We recognise the impact that the decisions this week to
BBC’s public sector obligation. My concern—this has delay the reopening of stadiums over the winter will
been raised by the National Union of Journalists—is have on sport, and the Government now will work at
that the number of staff who currently work on the pace with sports to understand the issues faced by
award-winning investigative programme “Inside Out” organisations facing the most challenging circumstances
will be put at risk of redundancy if the BBC reduces the and assess what further support may be required. Where
number of regional production centres from 11 to six. I it can, we will expect the top tiers of professional sport
am pleased by what the Minister said, but is he asking to look at ways in which they can support themselves,
Ofcom to investigate the BBC’s compliance with the with Government focusing on those most in need.
public sector broadcaster obligation?
Damian Collins [V]: As the Minister knows, many
Mr Whittingdale: I completely agree with the hon. football clubs, particularly in the Football League, face
Gentleman that local and regional news coverage by the financial ruin now that there is no prospect of the
BBC is one of the core public purposes of the BBC. I imminent return of fans and match day revenue. The
have spoken to the new director-general, and I am Government have offered £1.5 billion to help arts
pleased that he remains absolutely committed to that. organisations in the community, recognising their cultural
Whether the recent cuts reduce the ability of the BBC to value. What guarantee can the Minister give today to1119 Oral Answers 24 SEPTEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 1120
clubs in the Football League in particular that the ideas. I encourage my hon. Friend and, indeed, Members
Government will be prepared to offer public money to from both sides of the House to encourage people from
stop those clubs facing financial ruin? their constituencies to apply for it.
Nigel Huddleston: I thank my hon. Friend for his Jo Stevens (Cardiff Central) (Lab): Eighteen months
comments: he has great expertise in this area. I mentioned ago, the Government promised world-leading legislation
earlier that we are in discussions with major sports, to finally tackle online harms, promising that Britain
including football bodies. Yesterday, I wrote to the would be the safest place in the world to be online. Last
governing bodies of all major spectator sports to formally week, I met again with Ian Russell, the father of Molly
begin discussions and provide them with a contact Russell, who—as the Secretary of State will know—took
point in DCMS. I also asked the governing bodies to her own life at the age of 14 after accessing and receiving
provide me with details of any member clubs or associations more and more curated online content about suicide
under imminent financial threat, and will be providing methods and self-harm online. Mr Russell and many
more information in due course. other stakeholders told me they have real concerns, not
just about the absence of the promised legislation, but
Topical Questions that it is being watered down and will not include
regulation relating to legal but harmful content like that
[906574] Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) (Con): If he will which led to Molly’s death. Can the Secretary of State
make a statement on his departmental responsibilities. reassure them and the House that legal but harmful
content will be within the scope of the Bill when it
The Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and eventually appears?
Sport (Oliver Dowden): DCMS sectors have, of course,
been particularly hard hit by coronavirus, and we have Oliver Dowden: Yes. The short answer is that it will; it
been working tirelessly with them over the past few will be covered by the duty of care. We continue to work
months to support them and to help them to reopen as on our full response to the Online Harms White Paper
soon as we can in a safe way. Countless museums, consultation and we will be publishing that this year,
theatres and heritage organisations have been able to with a view to having the legislation at the beginning of
welcome back visitors, and we have seen innovation next year. Indeed, shortly after this session in the House
across all our creative sectors, for example, with London I will be meeting victims to discuss those proposals
fashion week returning this month. Gym and leisure further.
centres remain open, and elite sport continues to operate Jo Stevens: I thank the Secretary of State for that
behind closed doors. But of course, our fight against welcome answer. Another area of legal but harmful
coronavirus is far from over, and unfortunately we have content online is covid misinformation; conspiracy theorists
had to introduce carefully judged new restrictions to and anti-vaxxers continue to flood social media platforms,
curb the rising number of daily infections. That does 24/7. This morning, a University College London study
include delaying the reopening of business conferences, reports that more than one in five of the public are
exhibitions and large sporting events, which of course unlikely to accept a vaccine, amid widespread
was originally planned for 1 October. I know that this misinformation about side effects and profiteering. With
will be a severe blow for the business events industry increased infection rates, new restrictions and winter
and for our sports clubs, which are of course, the approaching, people are going to be spending more
linchpins of their communities, as many Members have time online, exposed to this harmful misinformation.
said today. I am working urgently with the Chancellor His Department leads the counter-disinformation unit,
and have met with sports this week to explore how we but there is no information available about its resourcing,
can support them through this difficult period. performance or impact. The public see a Government
who have lost control of the virus and of public health
Suzanne Webb: By 2022, it will be very clear to all
communication, so what is he doing to reverse that?
that I am the Commonwealth games No.1 fan, and so I
was thrilled to hear that the games organisers, Birmingham Oliver Dowden: Clearly, I do not accept the hon.
2022 and Spirit of 2012 announced £600,000 of funding Lady’s characterisation, which is a little overblown, but
for three west midlands arts organisations. Does the she rightly raises the point about the risks associated
Minister agree that the games’ cultural programme is so with disinformation should we succeed in achieving the
important to the creative and charity sectors, and what vaccine, which of course all parts of government are
more can we do to ensure that the Commonwealth working tirelessly towards. I am well aware of the
games best support my constituency and the Black Country? challenge of misinformation about the vaccine and I
have discussed it with the Health Secretary. The Minister
Oliver Dowden: We are all looking forward for Digital and Culture, my hon. Friend the Member for
enormously—I certainly am—to the Commonwealth Gosport (Caroline Dinenage), is working intensively at
games 2022, which will form part of a wonderful year ministerial level and is engaging with social media
of celebrations in 2022 alongside the festival of the companies to ensure we have the necessary measures in
United Kingdom and, of course, Her Majesty the Queen’s place to deal with any misinformation, should it arise at
platinum jubilee. There are exciting plans for the the time of a vaccine.
Commonwealth games, but those will coincide with
festival UK 2022, and those plans are progressing well, [906576] James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con): Retail is
most recently with the launch of a research and development important, and my constituency contains the excellent
competition earlier this month. We really want to bring new Lexicon shopping centre in Bracknell and many
together the greatest minds and the brightest talents fine shops in Crowthorne, Sandhurst and Finchampstead.
from science, technology, engineering, arts and mathematics Will the Secretary of State outline what is being done to
to apply to find the 10 most creative and innovative preserve and enhance the high street?1121 Oral Answers 24 SEPTEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 1122
Oliver Dowden: I wholeheartedly agree with my hon. themselves, starting with the premier league in respect
Friend about the importance of our historic high streets, of football; and to see what further support the Government
which are more than just places to go to eat, shop and can provide. That sits alongside measures such as
work; they give people a real sense of identity and pride £150 million of emergency support from Sports England.
in their communities. That is why last week I was
delighted to announce £95 million to restore 68 historic Mr Speaker: Can I just say to both Front-Bench
high streets across all of England to their historic glory, teams that topicals are meant to be short and punchy?
from Hexham to Plymouth to Reading and, of course, We really should do better than we have done today. A
near my hon. Friend’s constituency. The four-year lot of Members have missed out. We must move on now
programme shows that this Government are delivering to oral questions to the Attorney General.
on our promise to level up across the country and it will
also ensure that high streets recover more quickly from
the pandemic. ATTORNEY GENERAL
[906575] Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran)
(SNP): Now that we have seen a rise in covid cases and a The Attorney General was asked—
return to stricter regulations, public messaging is more
important than ever. The BBC has rowed back on its Vulnerable Victim Support
decision to end covering the Scottish Government’s
covid updates, but can the Minister understand the Antony Higginbotham (Burnley) (Con): What steps
concerns of many about the BBC’s inclusion of party the CPS is taking to support vulnerable victims during
political punditry following the First Minister’s very trial. [906444]
important public health briefings?
The Solicitor General (Michael Ellis): The needs and
Oliver Dowden: Clearly, the BBC is editorially sensitivities of vulnerable victims are at the centre of
independent from the Government, and I am sure the Crown Prosecution Service casework. Prosecutors apply
hon. Lady will want to raise this issue with Tim Davie for special measures to ensure that vulnerable victims
and others. are supported to give their best evidence, and the CPS is
engaged closely with the Courts and Tribunals Service,
[906578] Felicity Buchan (Kensington) (Con): Will my the police and other partners to facilitate the rapid
right hon. Friend update the House on the progress his roll-out of pre-recorded cross-examination for vulnerable
Department is making on reducing Huawei’s presence victims and witnesses. The CPS regularly engages with
in our 5G networks to zero by 2027? stakeholders and works with national and local partners
to continuously inform and improve its service, including
Oliver Dowden: I thank my hon. Friend for that to vulnerable victims and witnesses.
question. Following the statement I made to this House
shortly before the summer recess, we are committed to Antony Higginbotham: The sad reality is that there
introducing the telecoms security Bill this autumn, so was an increase in domestic violence during the months
that it will have a clear and enforceable timetable to zero of lockdown earlier this year. We know that it takes
for Huawei in our 5G networks by the end of 2027. Just enormous courage for victims to come forward. How
to update the House, let me say that alongside that we can I reassure my constituents in Burnley who are
will also publish our telecoms diversification strategy, vulnerable victims of this awful crime that they will be
and I am pleased to confirm that Lord—Ian—Livingston protected and supported by the CPS and the Government
will be chairing a taskforce of industry experts to drive when they come forward?
that forward.
The Solicitor General: My hon. Friend is right. The
[906577]Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): It has Domestic Abuse Bill is a landmark Bill, and it contains
come as a hammer blow for non-league clubs such as many measures that I know he will welcome to support
Chesterfield in the national league to discover that and protect victims. They include the introduction of
having taken on all the players, and facing all the costs domestic abuse protection orders, protections for victims
that are normally associated with running its season, it to prevent them from being cross-examined by their
will not now be able to bring fans in at the start of abusers in family and civil courts, and the introduction
October. Will the Secretary of State take us through his of the first statutory definition of domestic abuse. He
plans to ensure that we do not lose all the national may be interested to know that in recent months, an
league clubs that are facing a very precarious financial increase in the number of domestic abuse cases moving
position? through the system has been seen in CPS data for the
county of Lancashire, and that is good news.
Oliver Dowden: I am acutely aware of the impact of
our decision to postpone reopening with fans and social Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con):
distance from 1 October. Having engaged with the Crime rates in Carshalton and Wallington are, thankfully,
sports, I know the impact that that will have. I think below the national and London averages. However,
there is agreement on both sides of the House that that worryingly, domestic abuse in the London Borough of
was a necessary step, given where we are with covid. On Sutton is higher, on average, than in the rest of London,
next steps, I am working alongside the Chancellor and with covid restrictions only exacerbating the problem.
sports to understand their circumstances and the detail What actions can my right hon. and learned Friend take
of how the situation will impact them. Throughout all to ensure that vulnerable victims and witnesses of domestic
this, we have moved to reopen sports, which is why we violence are supported and protected from intimidation
have sports behind closed doors; to ask sports to help during trial?1123 Oral Answers 24 SEPTEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 1124
The Solicitor General: Domestic abuse is an abhorrent UK Internal Market Bill: Northern Ireland
crime. It is a high priority for the CPS in my hon.
Friend’s area of Sutton and everywhere in this country. Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): What
It is vital that we bring the perpetrators of these crimes discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for
to justice. Prosecutors apply for special measures, and Northern Ireland on the United Kingdom Internal
that will help to ensure that vulnerable victims are Market Bill. [906446]
supported to give their best evidence in difficult
circumstances, and that they are protected from contact The Attorney General (Suella Braverman): I regularly
with the perpetrator of their abuse. meet the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to
discuss important issues of common interest. The United
Serious Fraud Office: Covid-19 Kingdom Internal Market Bill is an essential and landmark
piece of legislation, which will safeguard and enrich our
Ian Levy (Blyth Valley) (Con): What assessment she precious Union. The Bill is a prudent step to create a
has made of the effectiveness of the Serious Fraud legal safety net and to take powers in reserve, whereby
Office’s response to the covid-19 outbreak. [906445]
Ministers can guarantee the integrity of the UK and
protect the peace process.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): What assessment Sir Desmond Swayne: So it does not break any law,
she has made of the effectiveness of the Serious Fraud does it?
Office’s response to the covid-19 outbreak. [906459]
The Attorney General: Consideration of and voting
The Solicitor General (Michael Ellis): The Serious for this Bill do not constitute a breach of the law.
Fraud Office responded quickly to the disruption caused However, there are powers in the Bill which, if and
by covid, and it has continued to progress casework when exercised, will operate to disapply treaty obligations
during this period. Notably, it has achieved a conclusion at the international law level—in particular, article 4 of
of the prosecutions in the Unaoil case, reached a deferred the withdrawal agreement, and articles 5 and 10 of the
prosecution agreement with G4S, laid charges in the Northern Ireland protocol. Parliamentary supremacy
GPT case and obtained asset confiscation orders in means that it is entirely constitutional and proper for
other cases. The SFO’s ability to maintain operational Parliament to enact legislation, even if it breaches
effectiveness during covid was recognised in the report international treaty obligations. I am glad that my right
on its response to the pandemic that was published by hon. Friend voted in support of section 38 of the
the Crown Prosecution Service inspectorate. European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020,
which made it clear that parliamentary supremacy will
Ian Levy: Will my right hon. and learned Friend prevail over international law.
please explain what steps the Serious Fraud Office has
taken to minimise any delays to its investigations caused Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab): The
by covid-19? last five former UK Prime Ministers have all shared
their concern about the Government’s intention to break
The Solicitor General: The chief investigator of the international law through the United Kingdom Internal
SFO led a taskforce in relation to covid, to assess all Market Bill. The Northern Ireland Secretary said that
operational activity that was initially halted by the the Government anticipated breaking the law in a “specific
pandemic as part of the office’s wider recovery planning. and limited way”. Even the Attorney General’s own
In addition, general counsel for the Serious Fraud predecessor said that the Government’s intention to
Office introduced virtual systems for reviewing cases break the law is “unconscionable” and will greatly damage
and virtual processes. We have been monitoring the Britain’s international reputation. So I ask the Attorney
SFO closely and it has been performing well in very General: are they all wrong?
difficult circumstances. The Attorney General: The question of whether in
law the Government can act in this way is very simply
Mr Speaker: Flight Officer Blackman, you are clear answered: yes, they can. The question of whether they
to land. should is one for political debate, not legal argument.
The hon. Lady may not like that answer, but it is one
Bob Blackman [V]: Thank you, ground control. that is founded on a robust legal footing by the supremacy
I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for his of Parliament, elucidated by Dicey and confirmed by a
answers thus far. Will he go a bit further on the recent unanimous Supreme Court in Miller.
deferred prosecution agreements, including those with
G4S and with Airbus? What assessment has he made of Ellie Reeves: I have listened to what the Attorney
the benefits of DPAs as a tool for prosecuting those General has said and I do not think that she has really
accused of such offences? answered the question. As a barrister, she knows full
well the role of the Government Law Officers; they
The Solicitor General: I thank my hon. Friend. DPAs must uphold the rule of law without fear or favour. As
are very important. They are extremely powerful tools her political hero, Margaret Thatcher, once said:
that hold companies to account, and the SFO remains “In order to be considered truly free, countries must…have…an
committed to using them. Since 2014, the SFO has abiding respect for the rule of law.”
agreed eight DPAs, five of which were for overseas Yet there is a universal view among those who look to
corruption offences. The total value to the Treasury of the Attorney General to defend the rule of law that she
all eight DPAs was around £1.58 billion, so I do hope has betrayed them, so could she tell the House what she
that Her Majesty’s Treasury is listening; they bring large has done to defend the rule of law in the face of the
sums of money into the Exchequer. Government’s breach?1125 Oral Answers 24 SEPTEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 1126
The Attorney General: I prefer to take a less emotional to deal with large volumes of electronic evidence. The
approach than the hon. Lady. I am extremely proud to proliferation in technology and digital devices has put
be supporting this Bill. It protects our country and it pressure on the disclosure process and notably increased
safeguards the United Kingdom of Great Britain and the resources required. That does present a challenge
Northern Ireland. The leader of the hon. Lady’s party for our investigators and prosecutors. There is not a
called for patriotism this week, but their opposition to silver bullet that will solve it, but I can assure my hon.
this Bill is anything but patriotic. How she can call Friend that this issue is not being left to languish. The
herself an MP who sits in the United Kingdom Parliament Crown Prosecution Service, in particular, is investing in
and at the same time vote against a Bill that defends the tools and working closely with its policing colleagues to
unity of our country, maintains peace in Northern meet these challenges.
Ireland and enables the United Kingdom—our country,
her country—to thrive is not only illogical but does a Domestic and International Law Compliance
grave disservice to the nation’s interests.
Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP): What
Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and recent assessment she has made of the effectiveness of
Kirkintilloch East) (SNP): The Attorney General has her role in ensuring compliance with (a) domestic and
just clearly illustrated that she is in office because, (b) international law. [906448]
unlike Jonathan Jones and Lord Keen, she is putting
her political loyalties—her Brexit fanaticism—ahead of TheAttorneyGeneral(SuellaBraverman):On10September,
her loyalty to the rule of law, when it should be the IwrotetoSelectCommitteeChairstosetouttheGovernment’s
other way around. That is why she should resign. But legal position on the withdrawal agreement and the
does not this whole episode also illustrate why future provisions in the UKIM Bill, and that position has not
Attorneys General should be lawyers and not party changed. We will ask Parliament to support the use of
politicians? It is all right for her to trash her own clauses 42, 43 and 45 of the UKIM Bill, and any similar
reputation, but not the reputation of the office of subsequent provisions, only in the case of the EU being
Attorney General. engaged in a breach of its legal obligations and thereby
underminingtheNorthernIrelandprotocolanditsfundamental
The Attorney General: The legal basis for the purpose. This creates a legal safety net and takes powers
Government’s proposals was set out in the statements in reserve whereby Ministers can act to guarantee the
of 10 and 17 September. Those made it clear that it is integrity of the United Kingdom and protect the peace
entirely proper, entirely constitutional and lawful in process. We are very clear that we are acting in full
domestic law to enact legislation that may operate in accordance with UK law and the UK’s constitutional
breach of international law or treaty obligations. It is a norms.
pretty basic principle of law, and if the hon. Gentleman
is having trouble understanding, I would be very happy Joanna Cherry: The Attorney General has justified
to sit down and explain it to him. her support for the Bill by reference to the domestic
legal principle of parliamentary supremacy and the
Criminal Justice Disclosure Practices judgment of the UK Supreme Court in Miller. But in
that case, the UK Supreme Court also said, at paragraph 55,
Jerome Mayhew (Broadland) (Con): What steps she that “treaties between sovereign states”, such as the
is taking to improve disclosure practices throughout the withdrawal agreement,
criminal justice system. [906447] “have effect in international law and are not governed by the
domestic law of any state.”
The Attorney General (Suella Braverman): I am The Supreme Court was quite clear that such treaties
committed to improving the disclosure process in criminal “are binding on the United Kingdom in international law”.
proceedings and upholding public trust in the criminal
justice system. Following a public consultation during Why did the Attorney General omit reference to that
which I hosted several online engagement sessions with part of the Supreme Court’s judgment? Did she not
defence practitioners, prosecutors and professionals from learn the rule against selective citation when she was at
the victims sector, I will shortly be publishing my revised law school?
guidelines on disclosure. Those will address the need for The Attorney General: On the principle, the dualist
a culture change and provide up-to-date and clear guidance nature of our constitution makes it clear that international
on how all parties in the criminal justice system can law and international treaty obligations only become
improve disclosure performance. binding in the UK until and unless Parliament says they
Jerome Mayhew: It is a hackneyed cliché that justice do. That is a reflection of the supremacy of Parliament
delayed is justice denied—denied for the victim, for and of how, effectively, international law gives way to
witnesses and for the accused, many of whom may be domestic law.
innocent. Can my right hon. and learned Friend assure I am grateful to the hon. and learned Lady for several
me that the leadership and the departmental focus is in reasons. The first is for intervening in the Miller litigation.
place to ensure that disclosure—particularly electronic Her intervention allowed the Supreme Court to find
disclosure—is undertaken in full and in a timely manner? unanimously, and hold on this point, for the sovereignty
Is this being measured? If so, are the targets currently of Parliament when it comes to international law. Secondly,
being met? she has allowed me to give examples of where domestic
legislatures have acted in breach of international obligations.
The Attorney General: I thank my hon. Friend for She will be familiar with the controversial “named
raising this important point. There has been an persons” legislation that was introduced by the SNP at
unprecedented focus over the last few years on ensuring Holyrood. It was ruled by the Supreme Court to be
that investigators and prosecutors are properly equipped in breach of international law, namely article 8 of the1127 Oral Answers 24 SEPTEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 1128
European convention on human rights. Finally, I thank The Solicitor General: I thank the hon. Lady for her
the hon. and learned Lady for allowing me to refer to question. Actually, in the Crown court we safely resumed
her point about breaching the rules and the rule of law. jury trials in England and Wales before any comparable
May I gently suggest that she directs her anger closer to jurisdiction in the world. With the full support of Public
home: towards her SNP colleagues and those who sit on Health England and Public Health Wales, we were
the National Executive Committee, who, as we speak, quicker off the mark to restart jury trials than our
appear to be changing the rules to prevent her exclusively neighbouring countries. More than 900 jury trials have
from standing as an MSP? Breaking the rules—the SNP been listed since they recommenced on 18 May. I thank
could write the textbook on it! the Lord Chief Justice for his leadership in that area.
Mr Speaker: I am not quite sure that we have Gerald Jones: We have seen reports of some trials
responsibility for the SNP conference at the moment. I being listed for 2023, and in some cases court dates are
call the Chair of the Justice Committee. not being given indefinitely. Does the Solicitor General
agree with me that justice delayed is justice denied, and
Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con) [V]: what is he doing to work to make sure that safe jury
The Attorney General referred to the letter that she sent trials can be brought forward?
to me and other Select Committee Chairs on 10 September,
which included a statement of the Government’s legal The Solicitor General: This is clearly a very important
position on the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill. issue. We are performing better than comparable
What support, input and advice did she receive from Commonwealth countries, but there is always more to
any legal officials in her Department, or from Treasury do, and the hon. Member is right that we want to avoid
counsel, in drawing up that statement of the Government’s delays as much as possible. For example, 128 rooms
legal position? suitable for jury trials are currently available, and this
will rise to 250 by the end of October. We are doing
The Attorney General: I thank my hon. Friend for everything we can. The Crown Prosecution Service is
that question. He will be aware of the Law Officers’ now eating into its backlog—so the backlog is no longer
convention, which forbids me from confirming the fact increasing; it is decreasing—and will continue to do
of legal advice or the content of it, so I will not divulge more. The Ministry of Justice has responsibility in this
any details about who may have assisted me in the area.
drafting of legal advice. However, I am grateful to him
for his contribution in finding a resolution, and particularly
for his support on the Government amendments tabled United Kingdom Internal Market Bill: Rule of Law
earlier this week, which introduce a break-glass clause.
That upholds the supremacy of Parliament, giving it an
extra check and opportunity to look closely at and Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance): What
examine the case for taking this action. I believe that is discussions she has had with Cabinet colleagues on the
lawful and constitutional. implications of the United Kingdom Internal Market
Bill for her role in promoting the rule of law. [906455]
Criminal Justice Backlog
The Attorney General (Suella Braverman): I speak
regularly to my Cabinet colleagues on various matters
Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): What steps relating to Government business. In tabling the UKIM
she is taking to reduce the backlog of cases in the Bill, the Government are clear that we are acting in full
criminal justice system. [906452] accordance with UK law and the UK’s constitutional
norms.
Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab):
What steps she is taking to reduce the backlog of cases Stephen Farry: Our system of international law has
in the criminal justice system. [906454] been over 400 years in the making. How would the UK
feel if other countries around the world were routinely
The Solicitor General (Michael Ellis): Covid-19 has putting “notwithstanding” clauses into their domestic
presented an unprecedented challenge for the criminal legislation?
justice system, and significant cross-system working has
been under way to keep cases moving through the The Attorney General: The reality and challenges of
system throughout the pandemic. Prosecutors and front-line being a sovereign nation state are that there are times
CPS staff have continued to cover open courts throughout when tensions and conflicts arise between domestic
the outbreak. I pay tribute and put on record my sincere legislatures and international obligations. There are countless
thanks to all the staff at the Crown Prosecution Service examples of where states with democratically elected
for continuing to support the justice system, and to the Governments, many of whom we held in high regard
independent Bar and solicitors as well. and including many with whom we deal and have
agreements, have resolved those tensions through legislation
Rosie Cooper [V]: Following the comments of Judge to depart from, derogate from or even break international
Raynor, who accused the Government of systemic failure law. Of course, two wrongs do not make a right, but
for not conducting trials in a reasonable time, what that is an important context that sets a perspective for
steps is the Attorney General taking with the Lord the action this Government are proposing. We are a
Chancellor to increase the number of safe and effective member of the international rules-based system, and I
jury trials? know our enviable reputation will hold us in good stead.You can also read
